www.amazon.com/Graphic-Ar...xgy_b_img_b

> He's pretty ambitious and strong-willed with his vision of what he wants his stuff to look like.
> Under other circumstances I wouldn't take him on as a new client.

Does this guy just need to learn and is willing and able, or is he the type that will never give up on what he wants vs. reality?

You might also remind him that he is also paying for the rights to use your artwork in a commercial setting. Just as if he was purchasing photography, an illustrated piece, or music.

My company says this, we are not selling our time, we are selling our ideas.

In that, how much is your idea worth to you? I often have clients who have projects they've designed and just need me to build. I consider these different than projects where I am using my own creativity, and adjust charging accordingly. If you truly are just building a design he's already created, maybe you should just charge time for it, if you are creating a design from your own creativity and ideas, then you should consider what those cost, not just what your time costs.

A few thoughts on others posts and the OP

The price paid to (Interbrand or Wolff Olins..I forget) was completely in line with the costs of creating a globally visible identity campaign. The price was not for the logo, but the entire identity system; keeping in mind there are months if not years of work both creatively and strategically that went into that. We'll ignore that the sizzle film they made caused seizures by some viewers. I actually think the entire identity is quite successful when seen on context of the whole program...its to me anyway, very very 'London".

One poster mentioned license fees akin to photography or illustration and getting a client to realize they are paying a royalty for use of artwork. Its generally practiced that with identity the full rights transfer to the purchaser upon final payments etc., so the artist (if hes smart) includes a part in the contract allowing the artist to use the mark for personal promotion only, but rights belong to the client.

This really comes down to a few things ive learned over way too many years in this business:

1. youll never convince a client to pay what your 'worth'. This is often true of very large clients, its always true of small ones, so you have to figure out if you want to do it as creative self reward...and if so, tread carefully, as those sorts of clients will take advantage of any generosity. I do a lot of 'favors' for people, but know going in its an exercise in creativity not a money making venture; Someone told me once the price for this particular 'item' was between $5000 and free depending on how much they liked you". If that makes any sense.

2. for larger clients, an identity is a cost that must be amoratized over many years. Its not a one time expense...its their customers key brand element that they remember. As such, the cost of creating an identity should be priced by its worth to the end user (the company/client), and not necessarily how many hours it takes to create it on the designers side.

3. for clients who have a strong will of their end product, they want a 'wrist' to execute. Either decide thats OK of find new clients. Never ever fantasize that a freebie, or a favor/low price on a job will lead to bigger full price projects from the same client. Its never happened. Once cheap, always cheap (i.e. 'you did it for me for $X before....)

In a nutshell there are two types of clients these days. Ones who value the strategic thinking a great designer brings and are willing to pay for it (rare to very very rare), and clients who need computer jockeys to execute their vision..or lack there of. (most). Youll never convert one to the other.

Im off my soapbox now. Good luck on this one.

The Graphic Artist Handbook linked in a post above is a great 'baselline' guidebook...as its got prices for different markets across different size companies. A lot of it is 'fiction"....some things are woefully low, and some high, but its a great place to start.

A pair of shoes in raw materials might only be worth 7 dollars
Add the lbaor and the shoe is worth 16 dollars
add the cost of machenery/maintenence of the machenery that makes them and the factory they are made in, 18 dollars
add the packaging, 20 dollars
add shipping, 25 dollars
add the designer lable that shows the expierence, the logistics, and the thought put into a product, 35 dollars
add the store front retail costs,39 dollars
add taxes, 42 dollars.

His ideas are that 7 dollars of raw materials which are currently useless. You are what turns it into something significant. which is why those raw goods become worth 42 dollars. you dont' havea store front but you have your home, you don't have shipping, but you have gas and a vehicle, you don't, have big factory machines but you have your computer and your programs. The only difference is that yours is less tangable, so people think they can get away with treating it like it dosne't really have a worth.

Indeed...nice analogy!

www.gag.org/

Check our their pricing guidelines book